Tithes / To Pay or not to Pay?

[Admin]

Will a man rob God?
Of course he will. God's word is very specific about tithes and offerings. It can be the deciding factor between blessings and curses in your life.

I won't go into a long discourse here, but God makes it pretty plain, "Be faithful, and I'll open a window from heaven and pour out a blessing you can't even contain"

He doesn't want us to "contain" his blessing. That's why our "cup runneth over".

Once the Holy Spirit finally convicts you (not condemns you, big difference) to pay your tithes, then comes the big question - 10% of my Net or Gross?

Do you want a net blessing or a gross blessing?
Dear God, please, gross me out

O.K., so now I'm paying my tithes, feeling pretty good about myself, but what's all this rattle about offerings? Isn't 10% enough?
Sorry
You see the 10% BELONGS to God. After you stop robbing him, then you start blessing him, and then your river really starts to flow.

O.K. fine. But that's just my paycheck right? Not my investments? Yikes! Where does it all end? It doesn't!

God's word says the "first fruits of your labor" and you say "Well my broker did all the labor, let him pay the tithe" That will work actually, believe it or not. Except he gets the blessings, not you.

Just remember this: You can not out-give God!
Go ahead and try. I dare you. It doesn't work. I've tried.

There's only one place in the Bible where God gives us permission to "test" Him. We just discussed it. So with His permission, go ahead, put Him to the test and see what happens.

Blessings
CT

[randall]

I started paying my tithes 8 years ago and have seen my paychecks increase 30% on an average for each year ....I for one will never stop..it...HE works!!!!

[Admin]

Congratulations!
God's Word, never fails!

[paperwhite]

I will mention that tithing and "love offerings" is about the heart though.

If you want to give to the Lord in hopes you'll make more money...........IT WON'T HAPPEN. And my suggestion to those people: KEEP YOUR MONEY.

If you give from the heart, that's when blessings flow.

Personally, I set up an automatic bill pay of 10% to my church and then take additional monies out into a separate fund which I call "love offerings". I use that money for special cases, whether it's a family in need, a missionary, etc. I'm by no means a perfect giver, but I do try and be humble in my successes, and loving in return for my blessings.

It's not about, hey look at me and how much I gave.......but it's about seeing other's lives changed!!

[Admin]

Beautiful point!
God loves a hilarious giver. PW is correct. If you give it grudgingly, you may as well keep it.

I love to give. Nothing brings me more joy. But I can't sow what I don't have. If I have only 1 seed, I can eat it, throw it to the wind, or plant it in good ground, and in due season, come back and reap a bountiful harvest.

The more I give, the more that I have to give. It's an immutable law. I don't give to make money to buy a new Cadillac, (i sold my 450 SL convertible years ago and bought a scooter - Honda Elite 80 - for $700) everyone asked if I had lost my mind. I replied that perhaps I had finally found it.

I give, so that God may bless me, so that I may feed his sheep, which just keeps the flow flowing. God doesn't need your money. He owns all the gold and silver and the cattle on a thousand hills. What he needs, wants, yearns for, is your heart.

He gave you the power to choose. AWESOME!

It's a wonderful life.

Blessings
CT

[cjerryprice]

There are no more secure investments than to first of all give God what belongs to Him (tithe) and to give offerings in His name. The benefits of being a tither go far beyond the financial benefits. The peace in knowing that I can stand before Him in any economical environment knowing that I have done what is right according to His word is priceless.

The Bible is filled with sciptures that speak of God's willingness to proser His children. As I desire to bless my own children God takes pleasure in blessing His. What He does not like however are greed and selfishness which are diametrically opposed to love. God is Love (1 John 4:8) and Love by His very nature gives so that we may be blessed (John 3:16). Psalm 1 is one of my favorites:

1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
TEXT4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

What of the people that worship money? (Money makes a lousy god):

Is This Success?*

In 1923 a group of the world’s most successful financiers met at the Edgewater Beach Hotel in Chicago.
Collectively, these tycoons controlled more wealth than there was in the United States Treasury, and for years newspapers and magazines had been printing their success stories and urging the youth of the nation to follow their examples.

Twenty-seven years later, let’s see what happened to them.

(1) CHARLES SCHWAB—the president of the largest independent steel company—lived on borrowed money the last five years of his life, and died penniless.

(2) ARTHUR CUTTEN—the greatest wheat speculator—died abroad insolvent.

(3) RICHARD WHITNEY—the president of the New York Stock Exchange—was released some time ago from Sing Sing.

(4) ALBERT FALL—the member of the President’s Cabinet—was pardoned from prison so he could die at home.

(5) JESSE LIVERMORE—the greatest bear in Wall Street—committed suicide.

(6) LEON FRASER—the president of the Bank of International Settlement—committed suicide.

(7) IVAR KRUEGER—the head of the world’s greatest monopoly—committed suicide.

All of these men had learned how to make money, but not one of them had learned how to live.

*Source: Tan's Illustrations



Jesus is Lord

[cjerryprice]

Sorry, the best part of Psalm 1 got left out because I tried to make it bold.

3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.

I'll figure it out.

Jesus is Lord

[Admin]

WoW!

"What does it benefit a man to gain the whole world yet lose his soul?" Jesus Christ

[Rincon de la Paz]

I respect all your viewpoints on tithing. I would like to offer another viewpoint. Before you read the enclosed link, I would like to share my tithing experience with you first.

I was a founding member of a new church. Because my background is in finance, I became the treasurer for the church. Our pastor never preached the tithing concept to the congregation. We discussed the tithing issues but the leaders did not want to push the concept on the congregation. My estimate was only 3 families that tithed in the congregation of 40 families. Our family was one of those that tithe. I felt we were blessed financially and in all other ways.

Due to other circumstances, we decided to move to Mexico. We found a new church to worship in. Again, as people learn about my background, I was asked to give testimonies on tithing. I gave a few testimonies because I truly believed in tithing. Then one day as I researched into tithing, my brother from Canada sent me an e-zine on Church and Finance. Within the many articles, there was one on tithing. The author tried to balance both sides and present a link to Ray Smith point of view on tithing.

www.bible-truths.com/tithing.html

Now since reading and studying the above link, I have discussed this with a close Christian friend. We could not refute or counter Ray Smith points biblically. Our pastor was very much against the article. Unfortunately, our pastor will not refute or counter any of the points biblically. I also tried to discuss this with my brother for he is an assistant pastor. He, too, points me to other tithing materials but does not counter Ray Smith.

To make a long story short, at this point, I no longer tithe. Now don’t get me wrong. I still give to needy causes. At times, the giving may be higher or lower than the 10% tithing. Is it just semantic?

You can decide for yourself and let us discuss the issue.

- Quy -

[paperwhite]

I respect your opinion, but before I even read this article on why "not" to tithe I will comment that it just sounds completely out of whack. How will the church pay bills, pay pastors, give to the community, etc without money? As it is right now most pastors are TERRIBLY underpaid. To take the route and say people don't have to tithe is a cop-out in my opinion.

I don't have the time to go through this article on anti-tithing right now, but if you're pondering this topic, simply pray about it and seek your convictions.

On a side note, Ray Smith is known to be a bit off the wall with some of his beliefs. He doesn't believe that the current translations of the bible that we currently have are correct, etc etc. I for one will pass on his interpretations and seek the bible itself for the truth.



For a decent read, check this link:
mcu.edu/papers/tithe.htm

Here is a portion of it below:


Many Christians have not learned the concept of Divine Ownership nor that of Dominion. As a result, they have a distorted view of the purpose of their finances. Here is an explanation of these two important principles.

THE PRINCIPLE OF DOMINION

GENESIS 1:26
Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all th e earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." (NKJ)


GENESIS 1:27
So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

GENESIS 1:28
Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living t hing that moves on the earth." (NKJ)

The Law of Tithing

God has given mankind the exclusive right or dominion to rule over His property and world. We have not only been given the right of dominion, but we are also "free moral agents," able to make our own decisions and to determine our own actions. Therefore, man can bless God with his actions or cu rse God with his actions. Obedience blesses God, while disobedience is a reproach unto God . Tithing blesses, while not tith ing is obviously a reproach.

DIVINE OWNERSHIP

If this principle could finally be understood in the hearts of all Christians, then the problems associated with giving and tithing would be over. Therefore, I will quote several scriptures to support this principle. Please take the time to read each sc ripture, in fact, underline them in your own Bible for future references.

GOD OWNS EVERYTHING!

PSALMS 24:1
The earth is the Lord's, and all its fullness, The world and those who dwell therein . (NKJ)

PSALMS 50:10
For every beast of the forest is Mine , And the cattle on a thousand hills. (NKJ)

PSALMS 50:11
I know all the birds of the mountains, And the wild beasts of the field are Mine . (NKJ)

HAGGAI 2:8
`The silver is Mine , and the gold is Mine ,' says the Lord of hosts. (NKJ)

EZEKIEL 18:4
"Behold, all souls are Mine ; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine ; the soul who sins shall die. (NKJ)


ROMANS 14:8
For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord's . (NKJ)

1 CORINTHIANS 6:20
For you were bought at a price ; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's. (NKJ)

1 CORINTHIANS 10:26
For "The earth is the Lord's, and all its fullness ." (NKJ)

God owns everything and we are merely stewards over His possessions!

Based upon the above scriptures and many, many others, it is clear that the entire earth, world, gold, silver, animals, and all people are God's! The principle of divine ownership teaches us that there is nothing that does not belong to God Himself! Whereas, the principle of dominion teaches us that mankind has been given stewardship over God's property.

I believe that this is a very timely message and teaching for the Body of Christ today! Especially living in a world of intense greed, selfishness and hedonism.
I am reminded of the very famous quote from the late president John F. Kennedy, "Ask not what your country can do for you, but ask what you can do for your country."

So many Christians today fail to realize that God has asked and even commanded them to give and to tithe! It is a very disappointing fact that 80% of the finances of any church is given by only 20% of the people. What can you do, wh at can I do for Chris t's church? TITHE!!!!!

Christian maturity is not based upon the concept of "God, what can you give me?" Rather, it is an attitude which expresses gratitude to God and a thank you, Lord, for what you have done for me, now what can I do for you in return? Mature Christians see the need and fill it. They see their responsibility and respond to it.


One of the greatest injustices that many pastors have done to the church is to insist that God demands one-tenth of our income and one-seventh of our week. The implications are that the other nine-tenths of our income an d the other six days of the week are ours to do as we please. The real truth is that everything belongs to God! Not only the tithe, but everything else: 100% belongs to Him. We are simply stewards being obedient to our Heavenly Master - Jesus Christ , our LORD and Saviour. The tithe is simply the basic starting point in our Christian financial commitment.

[Admin]

Rincon,
Be careful my brother. In the last days there will be many false prophets. I managed to make it through a few paragraphs of your link and Mr. Smith was already contradicting himself.

Abraham did pay a tithe, to Meclchezidek. In one paragraph he states Abraham paid no tithe, then in the next he quotes a scripture that says just the opposite. At that point I stopped reading.

Remember when Jesus told the young rich man, "go sell all that you have, and give to the poor, then come follow me"? Preachers today are letting you off easy with that Old Testament 10%. Like the previous poster stated, Jesus is looking for 100%. He wants to consume you. Are you ready to be consumed?

Consume me oh Lord.....
CT

[Rincon de la Paz]

PW & CT,

Thank-you for your responses. I appreciate the caring tone of your replies. I will take the time to respond to the various items that you brought up. This is a very important issue and deserves time and effort to explore. Again, I am open to hear more reasons why this position is incorrect.

“How will the church pay bills, pay pastors, give to the community, etc without money? As it is right now most pastors are TERRIBLY underpaid. To take the route and say people don't have to tithe is a cop-out in my opinion.”<br>
The church will pay bills and pastors through contributions from the congregation members. Our church in Canada rarely discussed or preached tithing. Yet we were able to meet our obligations to our pastors, make our bill payments and support missionaries overseas. At that time, I wanted to push for tithing as a requirement for membership in our congregation. However, now I recognize the key is to communicate to the congregation the needs of the church. The focus is on giving and sharing what we have and not an obligation to tithe.

I will also provide Ray Smith answer to a question similar to yours

bible-truths.com/e-tithe.html

“Dear Mr. [omitted]:

Thank you for your e-mail. You are brave souls!

You can all contribute money for meeting expenses of your group, that is no problem. Just DON'T TEACH TITHING AS A BINDING LAW. Everyone is free to give according as God has prospered him. Keep your expenses low and there show [sic] be no problems with people wondering where the money is going. Besides, tithing had to do with agricultural products, and it is hard to run a modern organization on radishes and tomatoes. Keep a budget, let the expenses be known to all, let everyone contribute. God bless your study group!

Sincerely,

Ray”<br>
The next issue is the side note of Ray Smith and different translations of the Bible. I will leave this for another thread if you care to discuss this further. Please let me know.

PW, you provided many scriptures on divine ownership. I agree with you completely. I recognize God owns everything and we are merely stewards over his possessions. Our family has made a drastic move from Canada to Mexico. Our lives are spent caring for God’s possessions from the people we meet and work with, to our pets, to the land we live on.

I understand your disappointment in the inequality of the 20% that provide 80% of the finances of the church. As a church treasurer, I saw the numbers. However, I don’t think this is the result of people not realizing that God has asked and even commanded people to give and to tithe. I believe that if you were to ask a person if he/she believes God has commanded us to give and to tithe, most would answer ‘yes’. And yet, the person would still probably not tithe. Again, this will require another thread to explore the reasons why.

What I would like is if you (PW) can provide me with scriptures on God commanded us to tithe. This way I can debate the specifics with you and stay relevant to this thread.

It is ironic that you dismissed Ray Smith point of view on tithing and yet your conclusion is basically identical to Ray’s conclusion. Below is Ray’s comment in the link that I provided in my previous message.

“God doesn’t need or want ten percent of anything we have. God wants one hundred percent. Christ died for ALL OF YOU, and He wants ALL OF YOU, not just a percentage! God doesn’t want your money; He wants YOU!”<br>
Next I will try to explain what I perceive is CT issue on Ray Smith contradiction. You stated that Ray states, “Abraham paid no tithe, then in the next [paragraph] he quotes a scripture that says just the opposite.”<br>
Now within the link provided in previous message, the full text of Ray’s comment on Abraham is “Abraham never tithed on his own personal property or livestock”. Then in the next section Ray quoted two scriptures Gen 14:20 and Heb 7:1-10. Both of these scriptures described Abraham tithing. Ray then goes on to explain this very first reference to tithing in the bible and I quote:

“Abram gives to Melchizedek (a priest of God who was also the king of the city of Salem) a tithe of the best of the booty taken in war. Notice that this was not wheat, corn, wine, oil, or cattle from Abram’s personal possessions, but rather booty taken from conquered nations.

There is nothing stated here that would cause us to conclude that Abram (later changed to Abraham) ever tithed on a regular basis on his own person possessions. Although Abraham gave Melchizedek a tithe of the booty of war, he told the king of Sodom that he would take none of it for himself.”<br>
As you can see, there is no contradiction from Ray’s original assertion that Abraham never tithed on his own personal property or livestock. Abraham tithing was on booty taken in war which Abraham did not take any for himself which clearly is not from his own personal property or livestock.

If my perception, of your contradiction, is incorrect, please clarify. I would hate to see you give up on understanding another tithing point of view on a simple misunderstanding.

Gentlemen, as I wrote at the start, I appreciate you caring enough to take the time to warn me of false teachings. I have spent many hours reading and praying about this point of view concerning tithing. I am open for more discussions.

- Quy -

[paperwhite]

Rincon,

I am currently strapped for time and will try and respond later.

I would like to drop a quick comment to ponder however.

Nothing against Ray's viewpoint, but I am a big believer in the fact that God leads his church to make the right decisions. The vast majority of the church around the world believes in some sort of tithe. As God leads and directs his followers, I don't think He would allow it to continue in his most healthy ministries if it wasn't His will.

Ray's viewpoint is but one person's opinion and he doesn't have much of a following. I strongly believe that if he was correct, God would've put him on a large platform that would revolutionize the church.......this isn't the case however. I'm not saying God's people don't make wrong decisions or get sidetracked, but His body as whole is COMPLETELY directly by Him.

A quick verse to read:
Malachi 3:8
"Will a man rob God ? Yet you have robbed Me! But you say, `In what way have we robbed You?' In tithes and offerings." (NKJ)

Did you notice God's response and question to the people who did not tithe in this passage of scripture? He asked the rhetorical question, " Will a man rob God ?" ; I don't know about you, but if I were going to rob someone, the last person that I would want to rob is God! Yet, that is exactly what He said the people were doing. What a serious indictment!

How can you and I literally rob God ? How can you take from the one who owns everything? Malachi 3:8 says, "... in tithes and offerings ." God is specifically telling us that if we do not tithe unto Him, then as far as he is concerned we are robbers or thieves. Then He proceeds to explain that as a result of our disobedience we are under a curse!

Do also note in Malachi, Chapter 3, that the curses from not tithing relate directly back to man's first rebellion against God in the garden.

Would you rather follow the Holy Scripture, or Ray's intrepration of it? Personally, I answer to God alone and when I sit at the pearly gates, Ray won't be the one judging. It seems fairly cut and dry to me. (Do note that tithing is not a "make or break" to get into heaven, but it will factor in with the "crowns" in heaven and true blessing on earth)

Again, I'll try and get some information later but thought I would share the above quickly.

[cjerryprice]

Proverbs 3
9 Honour the LORD with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase:
10 So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine.

What a thought, God, the Most High, Creator of all things wants to bless me. I don't know about you but knowing that My Father God Himself has filled my barns with plenty is a wonderful thing. God has given me jobs I had absolutely no business getting. He has blessed me with money I wasn't expecting. He has granted me wisdom in circumstances that could only come from Him.

He wants me to "Bring all the tithes (the whole tenth of your income) into the storehouse, that there may be food in My house, and prove Me now by it, says the Lord of hosts, if I will not open the windows of heaven for you and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. (Mal 3:10 Amp).

My tithe puts food in HIS house. I do what he asks with what (relatively) little I have and He blesses me according to what He has.

I see the tithe as something clearly taught in God's Word. I believe it was for Old Testament times, New Testament times and for today. If, however, someone could absolutely prove (from the Word) that it is not required today, I would do it anyway because it works. Thank God for His promises.

Isa 1:19
If you are willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land

Jesus is Lord

[Rincon de la Paz]

PW,

Thank-you for the continuing dialogue.

I don’t buy the argument that the majority always has the correct view. While I am sure there are plenty of healthy ministries that teach tithing. It does not follow that tithing is binding on us Christians. I can give you a counter example. How would you explain the Jews actions at the time of Jesus? The Jews were God chosen people at this time. Did the majority of Jews have the correct view of God’s teachings in Jesus? Is this what you are saying according to your logic - Jews are God chosen people, majority of Jews did not believe Jesus is the saviour, Jesus is not the saviour.

The answer could simply be that the healthy ministries are teaching many, many truths according to God’s will. The many, many truths greatly outweigh the small error in tithing is a Christian obligation.

Yes, I expected you to quote Malachi 3:8 as this is one of the standard reference to tithing. Ray Smith explained this scripture in details on my referenced link in the earlier post. The Malachi explanation starts half way through the article. I would certainly debate further if you would kindly read that section.

As to your question of ‘would you rather follow the Holy Scripture, or Ray’s intrepration [sic] of it?” I will follow the Holy Scripture. There are many translations of the original Hebrew text for the Old Testaments. You mentioned this issue in an earlier post and I will expand upon this further. I am currently reading through the Concordant Version of the bible www.concordant.org . The goal of this version is to translate, as close as possible, word for word, from Hebrew into the English language without additional meaning.

When I read Malachi 3:8-10 in the Concordant Version, there is certainly a different interpretation. As Ray point out, straight from the Holy Scripture, as translated in Concordant Version, we need to see who is cursing whom.

Now before we all get in a tizzy about different translations, I am open to going back to the original Hebrew text. We can work through this short passage from Malachi and translate word for word. Then we both can judge for ourselves who is following the Holy Scripture.

I know in my heart that I will answer to God, and only God, alone. I will tell God how much I love him because he gave all of himself to me even though I am a sinner. I will tell God how I obeyed his teaching on giving.

My sincere hope is that we, as Christians, focus more on giving because the needs are present rather than tithing due to a perceived obligation.

- Quy -